The Prince by Machiavelli- 6th group 2
The Prince by Machiavelli- 6th Hour group 2
During this fishbowl there will be a discussion taking place on the inside of the fishbowl and a blogging discussion on the outside of the circle. As you are blogging on the outside of the circle you need to present higher level questions and comments that you have in regards to the reading. We will notice that the conversations will be different but will overlap themselves in areas. You are encourage to participate both on the inside and the outside of the circle.Remember, pose original thought provoking questions/comments that tie this piece of literature into the study of the Renaissance.
During this fishbowl there will be a discussion taking place on the inside of the fishbowl and a blogging discussion on the outside of the circle. As you are blogging on the outside of the circle you need to present higher level questions and comments that you have in regards to the reading. We will notice that the conversations will be different but will overlap themselves in areas. You are encourage to participate both on the inside and the outside of the circle.Remember, pose original thought provoking questions/comments that tie this piece of literature into the study of the Renaissance.
posted by Alison | 12:14 PM
31 Comments:
What do you think about the passage, "A man who did only what was right would soon fail among so many who are untrustworthy"? What does this tell us about our society today?
In response to the quote about would it be better to be feared or loved i think it would be better as a ruler to be feared because it would keep your ememies away and the people in line. This however only works to a point because if you are feared to the point where you become to strong you won't be a very good leader.
I think that when machiavelli refers to the fox and the lion... he is simply making the point that BOTH the fox-like characteristics AND the lion-like characteristics are to be present in a leader. By commenting that a "fox [has] been the most successful" and then referring to the pros of lions... he is NOT contradicting himself. He is making a point of COMPROMISE!!!
Cayla... I think that the quote that you referred to is right on. Most people do not trust honesty these days. Why? I think that dishonesty is so prevelent, that when an honest person turns up... they can't be trusted. It's like in the Canterbury tales. The ones that seem to be the most honest MUST BE tested. They could be the most corrupt.
Sam- I like that passage at the end as well. I was a little shocked to see the role of women come into this article though. And as I was reading, I actually found it pretty condesending and durogatory. I didn't like the passage "it is necessary,if you wish to master her, to conquer her by force." I found this very degrading to women. Why did Machiavelli add them in at the end? What's the significance in mentioning them at all?
The honest man will most likely fail because he will fall among the untrustworthy. If his audience/ population doesn't like him, it doesn't matter if he's honest any more. He won't have POWER to enforce his good will.
but is the contradiction intentional?
On the trust in todays society issue. I agree that no one is really honest whihc makes people hard to trust. However if no one is trustworthy then you can always trust them to get lieing, whihc makes them in some way more trustworthy or easy to understand. If that makes any scence.
So then have honesty and truth become something of the past? Something that our world no longer can accomadate? I agree with amanda in that the honest man will fall in the long run.
They are trusted to fail. But is that trust? I can trust my best friend with my life. That doesn't mean that I can trust them to fail. I can trust my enemy to hate me, but I don't know HOW he will hate me. I can't predict him... BECAUSE he can't be trusted. I can, perhaps, predict what he will NOT do.
can you be elected into power off of fear? or you elected off of love?
once you are elected do you then move towards fear... creating a government of contridiction?
I don't agree that the honest man will fail in the long run because the truth always seems to come eventualy, and whne it does then the honest man will susceed. also a society built on lies won't get very far at all.
Amanda-I think the contradictions are intentional. I don't think he would have written this and published it WITH so many contradictions in it if he didn't intend for them to be there. I think that the purpose for the contradictions is to show that perfection is impossible and that there must be a balance in the world for anyone, especially a prine to succeed. I think he's trying to emphasize balance.
do his contridictions represent the necessity to change?
can you "trust" a leader who changes?
I think that honesty and truth still exist. I like to believe that I am true and honest, but I think that people criticize TRUTH much more because OPINIONS have become so prevelant. If everyone has their own opinion... they don't like it when one person tells them that there is such a thing as truth. THAT is WHY the true and honest man will fail.
Chelsea do you really think that he values women more? He tells men to conquer them by force. I don't know...I take this as he's putting women down and putting them on a lower level then men.
I think it's better to be elected off love. The ideal is to then create fear by not loosing the love but i think the most important thing is love then because love is stronger then fear because when your in trouble people who love will come help you while people who fear who probaly won't.
Cayla- I agree with you. I do think that he is trying to emphasize balance. I suppose that when I said that he didn't contradict himself I meant that, in a negative way, he was not being a fool. He meant to do it. It's more of a method of getting his point across.
quote to think about...
"men are so simple minded that anyone who wants to be deceitful can always find those who will allow themselves to be deceived"
is this true...????
Sam, keeping things from them tecnically isn't a lie but it isn't the truth and i think society weather it can handle the truth or not still deserves the truth.
Ms. McBride- I think that I HAVE to trust a man that changes. If a man is too afraid to change... he has no ability to use discretion in different ways to respond to DIFFERENT situations. That is what Machiavelli is talking about on the entire 1st page.
McBride- SOOOO true. People love ignorance. To the point of having a TON of stupid people in this world. People would rather look at their shadows in a cave. They're afraid.
people should find truth... not believe the lies that people define as truth. People can be so dumb. That's why I think that the success of a leader TRULY depends on the population that he is ruling. Do you agree or disagree?
In response to Forster's comment, I think that, as a society, we can't handle the whole truth. I think that if we knew everything that was going on behind the scenes in our world today, mass chaos would break loose and no order would remain. And besides this, I don't believe that anyone knows the whole truth, not the president or the ambassadors or prime ministers. I don't think that anyone can really ever know truth in it's entirerty
I agree with Cayla. Truth is too broad for one person, or even a group of people, to comprehend or even have. But I don believe that it exists. But no one can be trusted to rule by truth 100% of the time...
Soo i think that he mentions women to further emphasize the need for balance and the reality of contractions between men and women. But I think this whole piece of literature is based on balance and so by throwing women into it, it further illustrates the need of balance.
Amanda, I agree wiht you that people should search for the whole truth even though they'll probaly never find it. It's much better then excpeting lies and half truths. But i think if a ruler is strong enough it doesn't matter who he is ruling.
yes, soo, protecting his people is a great attribute of a leader, but what if his people don't recognize his actions as beneficial when REALLY they will be? is sacrifice worth reward? that is why we elect people that we believe has our wellness in mind. Judgement. We have to learn how to trust AS WELL as defend beliefs. There is a balance.
This may be extremely pessimistic but I'll play the devil's advocate for a minute...I think that the only trust in the world comes from within. I don't think you can trust anyone else in the world but yourself.
but truth DOES exist. Sure, people have opinions about truth... but it is still there. There is a right way, and there is a wrong way. Not everyone KNOWS what that is... but it still exists. Whether we understand it or not.
Hello y'all,
I'm a teacher in Seattle, WA (Shorewood HS) and I've been checking out your blog. We're doing some similar masterpieces in our class, specifically the Platonic cave allegory. Are you going to be studying Dante's Inferno anytime soon?
If you have the time and inclination, I thought you might like to check our blog out. The individual blogs of students are on the right side (see the Honors 10 links). Email me at nathan.stearns@shorelineschools.org if you'd like as well.
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